Transcript of ICTLEP workshop 7/1997 in Houston: "Legal needs of the non-transsexual." [Published on this web page with a big THANKS to Phyllis Frye and ICTLEP!] Jane: Well, good afternoon, and welcome on behalf of the TRANSGEN Legal Conference. I'd like to introduce our panel today, which is going to be on the legal needs of the non-transsexual part of our community, especially crossdressers and drag queens. I'd like to introduce our panel. To my right Jackie: ... is a drag queen (laughter) ... Jane: go ahead, Jackie. Jackie: I'm Jackie Thorne. I'm a member of the Gulf Coast Transgender Community, a ten year member of the World Sovereign Imperial Court of the Single Star, which is a predominently gay fundraising organization, social/service organization for the Houston community. We raise money, not only for AIDS-related charities, but for the battered women's shelter, for the children's hospice, abused and AIDS children's hospice. In fact, the beneficiary of this year's reign is the Loving Arms Foundation, which is an AIDS and abused children's hospice, and the funds will be used to provide a learning center for computers and so forth that they have needed for a long time at the Loving Arms Foundation. Jane: OK, to my immediate left is Mary Ann Harris, of Columbus, Ohio. Mary Ann, do you want to say a few words about you? Mary Ann: Well, I hope my voice will project to this wonderful large crowd. Unfortunately, not being a drag queen I don't get to use my male voice up here. I'm Mary Ann Harris, I'm from Columbus, Ohio, I work for Lucent Technologies, and I'm here primarily to talk about some initiatives within Lucent with respect to workplace issues. Jane: And to her left is Melissa Dixon from North Carolina. Melissa: I'm Melissa Dixon, and I'm a member of Tri-Ess, I'm the Tri-Ess representative to ICTLEP and to It's Time, America, and the co-founder of It's Time, the Carolinas. And I'm here to talk about things you need to do outside to make some of these legal needs happen. Jane: And I'm Jane Ellen Fairfax, chair of the board of Tri-Ess, a support and education organization for crossdressers and their families. With that, we'll go ahead and get started. One of the issues that is a real burning one at this conference is the issue of discrimination in employment. Most states are employment-at-will states. What this means is, that except for race and color and sex and education and national origin, discrimination is otherwise legal for just about any reason. By the way, I'd also like to say that all four of us here at the table are good friends, we're going to tap into each other and cut into each other. It's going to be entirely interactive because what this seminar is in the long run is what you all are and we are all put together. That's what's going to go into the proceedings, and that's what's going to define the direction of legal work in the future. But anyway, so it is legal to discriminate in many many ways, including your cross- gender identity, be it transsexual, be it crossdresser, drag king or queen, whatever. In fact, most if not all people in this room are included in that legal discrimination. I'm speaking about primarily crossdressers, and I'm here to tell you today that crossdressers are a lot like turtles, and the reason that crossdressers advocacy hasn't gone further than it has is because crossdressers can always flee back into presenting as their birth sex when things get a little hot to handle, and we're going to talk fairly extensively about that. But this persistent legal discrimination is why we need ENDA. Now, I'm one who likes to use as few words as possible, so I would like to use the word ENDA. ENDA, for the purposes of this seminar, means Employment Non-Discrimination Act. That Is what we need to get passed. What is in Congress right now is not an employment nondiscrimination act. It's a Discrimination-enabling Non- Discrimination Act, and if that sounds like it's a contradiction in terms, it's because it is, and some of our members of the panel are going to wade into that later on. OK. For all the crossdressers in this group. You don't think we need ENDA. You an always drop back into your birth sex and present that way. Dee McKellar presented a very vivid picture that applies to all of us. Picture yourself as getting home from a gender convention or a meeting of your local support group, and you're suddenly called out to work, the boss needs you right away, and you go in, and while you've taken your nail polish off, you've done it hurriedly and there are a few streaks around the nail folds. This little "oops" can cost you your job. And it's all legal. We need something legally that will protect us. Last year, we talked about the fact that crossdressers. Last year, we talked about the fact that crossdressers have no personal needs, in particular, no job needs, that we are subject to just being fired at will, we have no need to support our families, that we can be discriminated against if a seller of housing, a renter of housing, knows we're a crossdresser, this is all legal. Last year I mentioned that crossdressers are people without bladders. Well, in the last year's time, we still haven't grown them! The Houston restroom ordinance is like that in many cities. It is illegal to go into the restroom of the opposite sex "with the intent of causing a disturbance." Well, the Denise Wells case, of course, everybody probably in the country is familiar with. The poor lady was really in desperate need to use the restroom, so she desperately checked into the men's room, was discovered and prosecuted, and the case was, of course, quietly dropped. And of course crossdressers cannot necessarily go to the men's room in safety because they may be beaten up. Terri - your hand was up, and you had a very interesting experience to relate, I understand. Terri Lynn Hall: Well, I just got a ticket for using the female bathroom at this place that we go clubbing at. On Friday night, before I got my name changed, just a few months ago. I went to court, finally, jury. And I handled it pro se, which means without an attorney, and the jury found me not guilty. That's it. Vickie: Question, Vickie Talis, What were the grounds that the case fell apart on? Terri: Well, we were counting on a few strategies, but the main thing was intent. The head jurist was interviewdd by the news, and he said they just didn't find intent, which is what I pushed. Vickie: . to create a disturbance Terri: yeah. Because the law has a couple of parts to it. And the intent to cause a disturbance is the part I was pushing, that I could prove. And I hard Mark Mull, my boyfriend, with me. He testified also. And all they had was the cop, and that's all. Jane: Thank you, Terri. This illustrates that some of these ordnances d have weaknesses, especially something like intent. It's hard to prove. Vickie: The other key thing is, if you're going to use the women's restroom, ask permission. If you are pointed to a restroom by a member of the establishment employees, and they point you to the gender-specific restroom that you want, then you have also beaten the law. Terri: Well, certainly the person in charge of the premises at the time, if you have their permission. If they've got somebody in charge, like in my case, if I bring a security guard in, to testify against them, you know, that'll keep them off the stand. Jane: That was Terri Lynn Hall Jackie: While we're on the subject, I thought I might relate a similar type incident you might find amusing. At the club that Terri Lynn was ticketed at, the management put out the policy that, the gender community, basically what it was is there was a computer bulletin board system party that was held there every Saturday night. There was a sizable segment of the user base that was also members of the gender community that come to the club crossdressed. So anyhow, a complaint was registered, and it turned out afterwards that it was not a member of the gender community, but it was some clown, not even crossdressed, but some guy who had walked into the ladies room and caused the entire problem. But anyhow, the manager put out the word that the gender community could no longer use the female bathroom. And so, that Saturday evening, I was there, and when the word went around, and there were two other people there, Jennifer, and another gender person, Were you one? OK, Terri Lynn was the other one, then, I looked over there sitting at the table there, and I said "come on, let's go to the bathroom." And they said "we can't use the bathroom anymore." And I said "Let's go to the men's room." So we walked into the men's room, all three of us, decked out to the nine's. And there's a row of urinals, about five urinals, in the mens room there. And there's a guy standing at the fourth urinal, and so, being the instigator and agitator that I am, I walked up to the third one and hiked up my skirt, whipped it out, and proceeded to relieve myself, and that guy put skid marks on the floor trying to get out of that bathroom! Needless to say, this is not advice that you do this, but certainly it presents the opposite side of the thing. If I can't use the female bathroom, and I put myself at physical risk for using the male bathroom, what am I supposed to do? I can't go outside behind the bush, I'll get arrested for public indecency, at least exposure. So there has to be some sort of accommodation there. Jane: Some of our founding fathers spoke of "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of happiness" and another thing that crossdressers desperately need is personal freedom that will guarantee that Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of happiness. The first thing pertains to our own personal liberty. It is still illegal, in some jurisdictions, to appear in public crossdressed. Last year, the myth was busted up that almost all the crossdressing ordinances had been repealed. As you all are probably aware, Phyllis Frye knocked out Houston's anti-masquerading ordinance back in 1981. (August 12, 1980.) So anyway, she did the work, and we've been enjoying the proceeds of her labors ever since. But, for one thing, San Diego, it's still illegal to appear crossdressed in San Diego. Terri: (says something from the back of the room and won't come up to the mike.) I was arrested for that, also. Jane: Terri, whose criminal record is as long as your arm (laughter) Terri: . they tried to pin something on me and they couldn't. Jane: Terri Lynn was arrested in 1980, just after the ordnance was repealed, and she was probably the first beneficiary of that changed ordinance. Terri: Little known fact. Jane: OK. Let the record say. Jackie: Also, although it may have, in the last couple of years or so, been repealed, but surprisingly enough, Detroit, Michigan has an anti-crossdressing ordinance. And the problem with the ordinances are that, for the most part, they are never enforced, unless the cop is desperate, he's grabbed somebody, and he's got to have something to justify harassing the person, so if there is a crossdressing ordinance, they'll dredge that up. For the most part, it's basically ignored. Jane: Is anybody else in this room aware of any other places where there are anti-masquerading laws or crossdressing laws or anything like that? Terri: My attorney says that last year, Pasadena Texas may have such a law. (Terri is pursuaded to it in the front row of the room.) Melissa: This is Melissa Dixon. While Terri's coming up. The thing you need to be careful about, even though in North Carolina there's not a law that specifically addresses crossdressing, crossdressing itself is not illegal, there is a law, at least a series of laws under the heading of "moral interpetude" which gives the cop the right to arrest you for any reason. There was a case of a young girl in a small town, of which I'm going to assume Barney Fife was the sheriff, was arrested when hiphuggers and crop tops were fashionable. She was arrested for showing her navel. And convicted. Of course the judge was smart enough to throw it all out, on the appeal. But you need to be careful where you're at, and watch for the hidden, subtle laws, because it may not be blatant that you can't crossdress. Mary Ann: I might add that, in the midwest, there's a couple of related laws. In Pennsylvania, it's illegal for a T to Pee, because of the bathroom laws there. It's a felony to use the restroom opposite your legal sex on your drivers license, and it's a misdemeanor to use the restroom opposite the way you're dressed. So, you can't cross Pennsylvania unless you have no bladder! In Ohio, crossdressing is grounds for divorce. If you look up the divorce statute under grounds, transvestism is listed as a ground for divorce, transsexualism is listed as a ground for divorce. That's still on the books in Ohio. I've had that one used against me, personally. Jane: That was Mary Ann Harris. Mary Ann: Guilty! Jane: And if we had a larger representation in this room we would find other places, so if any of us think that the anti-crossdressing laws have been repealed, they certainly haven't. And part of the purpose for these seminars is to record these all things, so we can direct legal action where it needs to be taken to bring down the rest of it. And as Melissa and Mary Ann said, there are other ways they can try to get you, so we need to get interpretations on all those laws. Jackie? Jackie: Point of information which I found rather amusing. Back in 1984, I sent a letter to the police department of Lake Charles, LA. Asking whether it was illegal to crossdress. And also what the procedure would be in the utilization of the bathroom of the sex in accord with the way I was dressed. I received a very nice letter back from a Corporal in the Police Department who said "it is not illegal to crossdress in LA, nor in Lake Charles" which kind of surprised me, and he said "as far as the bathroom issue, as long as you're not bothering anybody and you keep your mouth shut, go ahead!" Jane: We need to encourage such attitudes! OK. We talked about Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happyness. There's lots of places we can still lose our liberty. I might add that there are places in Canada where crossdressing is illegal, you can't appear in public crossdressed, after 8 PM. I mean, there are some weird laws on these books. So now, let's talk a little bit about life. Crossdressers, drag queens, all the community are still subject to hate crimes. We definitely need Hate Crimes Legislation to really put some of these people away. At this point, I'm going to turn the floor over to Jackie, who will talk about some of the legal needs of drag queens. Jackie: By way of background I came out in 1982, September, as a drag queen, mainly because I had three very very good friends who are members of the gay community who were female impersonators performing on stage, and having been involved in drama and theatre in high school, at least for me, this was kind of a natural. I was encouraged and assisted by them in doing so. But again, of course, at that time, the ordinance had been repealed, there was no legal requirement in that regard. However, there was the problem with your garden variety redneck who most of the time is sexually insecure or has to prove how macho they are by beating up some fag. Well, the fact that you may or may not be homosexual is irrelevant as far a they're concerned, because I guarantee you, when the local contingent from the Hitler Youth up in the woodlands comes down to beat the hell out of you, they're not going to stop and say "hey, wait a minute, are you a faggot or are you straight?" They're still going to whip your butt. And this constitutes a hate crime, because you are perceived as being gay, which of course, unfortunately, is the attitude of most of society which any man who wears a dress is automatically presumed to be gay. But as far as the Hate Crimes aspect of the thing, this can range all the way from physical beating and death, which has happened to something as innocuous as, oh, there was about ten years ago, a real problem on lower Westheimer with some of the teenagers from Pasadena coming over and driving up and down lower Westheimer in their pickup trucks on Friday and Saturday night, causing severe traffic problems. And, along with that, there were of course the usual verbal taunts of "faggot" and "queer" and less printable adjectives that are directed toward people who are walking up and down the street, as well as the occasional attempt to give you a beer bath, which my understanding is is supposed to be good for your complexion, but it sure is hell on your clothes! So there is a problem here! Most of your hate crimes, I think you will find, the research that has been done into it, basically stems from the low self-esteem, the inferiority complex, the sexual insecurity, of the person who is the perpetrator of the hate crime. And of course that, regardless of the reason, doesn't make it any better for the victim. So the main thing that you need to keep in mind is that you have to report, even if it is nothing more than a verbal of some clown riding down the street with his Miller Lite in one hand and his arm around his girlfriend and he's riding down the street in his pickup truck, with the umbrella in the shotgun rack in the back of the truck, you still need to report this, and if possible try to get a license number, don't be so flustered about the thing that you fail to at least get some kind of a description that you can provide to the police. In Houston, we are very very fortunate, we have an organization called the Q Patrol. What they do is, they are a group that goes out, in some respects they are similar to the old Guardian Angels type thing, but they'll go out in groups of four or more on foot patrols throughout the Montrose area, and they are linked by walkie-talkies to a base station who in turn is linked to the dispatcher of the police department. They basically are not any kind of a law enforcement organization, but they are looking for suspicious activities. If they see a car that is continually cruising the area, particularly if it's a car full of young people, they will try to get a license number, and they have a program whereby they send postcards to the owner of the vehicle, which usually is some kid's parents, indicating that this vehicle was seen being operated in a suspicious manner in the Montrose area on such-and-such a date at such-and-such a time. In some cases this takes care of the problem, in some cases it does not. But the Q Patrol serves a very very worthwhile function. It is my understanding they do have these in other communities, and this might be a stopgap measure that can be used to reduce the amount of hate crimes, in the same way that the neighborhood watch program reduces crime in the neighborhood, where an effective Neighborhood Watch program is instituted in a neighborhood. Usually your burglaries and car thefts and so forth like that are substantially reduced. Until such time as you can get police cooperation and/or appropriate legislation to deal with the people who are perpetrating these hate crimes, certainly the concept of the Q Patrol is something to be considered. Jane: Thank you Jackie. In the workplace, even now, crossdressers experience a lot of distress. It is perfectly OK for a crossdresser at work, if he or she shows any manifestations of being a crossdresser in their outward appearance can face sexual harassment, and there are stories around about that. This actually happens. Heather: This is Heather Burke. I worked for the Department of Public Safety, up until March for the last year and a half. I was basically the only male employee that had hair. So naturally having any length of hair at all you were subject to people thinking you were different, you're this, you're that. I wore my earrings on a daily basis to work, so that confounded the matter further. And regardless of the fact that all my fellow employees knew that my wife, Colleen, worked there, there were comments made to me by an assistant supervisor which were basically sexual harassment, very illegal type comments, very demeaning comments. This resulted in me having to leave my job, leave my benefits. I filed a formal complaint with DPS, and it's being investigated at the present time. It's not a pretty picture. It basically comes down to the fact that I'm different. I never stated that I was a crossdresser or anything of that nature. If there's perceived difference, then people latch onto it, and the result is not good. Pam: My name is Pam Barres. Let me ask a question. Why did you lose your job before you filed. Heather: Well, I went through all the proper channels. I went to the assistant supervisor's supervisor, I went to the section supervisor, I went to the bureau supervisor, and basically all this was put back off on me, this is my problem, this is not a serious issue, I should try to rectify this on a one-to- one level. Of course I'd already tried to do that. And they were trying to incorporate this into my performance appraisal saying that I was developing a negative attitude. Of course I was developing a negative attitude! I was being discriminated against! But it's very disconcerting that here in the late 1990's you can face stuff like this. Jane: Working. You would think that, working for the US Government, which is probably one of the supposedly less discriminatory organizations around might be a better environment. Jackie: Wrong. Jane: But people have had to fight for the security clearances and even their jobs in the federal government. Is there anyone in the audience who can tell us anything about that? Cissy: Cissy Connelly. This is all in the records about four years ago in the proceedings anyway. I work for the Air Force here. I was seen dressed one night by someone who recognized me. A complaint was filed. To make a long story short, after about fourteen months, the pulled my security clearance. There wasn't a problem with the civilian personnel side. There's an employee handbook, regulations, and basically, civil service, what you do, outside the normal eight hours of work is your business, but because of the security clearance regulations which were in effect at that time (I'm talking about six years ago) transvestism was in a laundry list of heinous crimes which included child molesters, pedophiles, murderers, just all of your bad things. Now since then, the security regulations have been changed, and the only reference now in the security regulations are if you have a proven mental illness, beyond the shadow of a doubt, not just the very relation of it. But I did have to appeal my security clearance being pulled, and I did win the case. (Applause.) Jackie: As a side not, although I did not suffer the same problem Cissy did, I spent 28 years in the Army Reserve and National Guard in, surprisingly enough, Military Intelligence, which is not an oxymoron (laughter). Jane: It's some other kind of moron. Jackie: I also had a top secret security clearance throughout almost the entire period of time that I was involved in the military service. I have since retired. In fact, the day that I got my retirement papers was the day I got my ears pierced! Basically in my case it was a matter of observing the "don't ask, don't tell" policy. I kept my mouth shut and they never asked me the right questions. And so I lucked out for some 28 years. Now, in the course of having physical exams and so forth like that, I recall one instance where the doctor who was examining me asked me if I liked boys, and I said "no, at least not from a sexual standpoint." And that was as far as it went. So there is the ability, if you're not real flagrant about it, to kind of slide below the surface. Where the problem arises, of course, is if you do get caught, or someone informs on you, you are brought up before your military superior and asked about it, because it is in fact a violation of the Universal Code of Military Justice to crossdress. And it does not matter if you are an officer or an enlisted man. Cissy: Right now, as we speak, there is a Master Sargent in the Randolph Air Force Base who has been undergoing a battle royale with the local establishment, Mary O'Connor, has a female name plate on her desk, her battle's back and forth, and she's using the judicial system to, more or less, to use the, she's gotten the Air Force to give her a Gender Identity of Female and yet they won't allow her to change. This is an in progress thing - maybe next year there will be a ... Jane: A male-to-female transsexual Vickie Collins: One incident I'd like to relate. Back when I was in Vietnam it was very common for a lot of the guys who wore combat helmets to have their wives send them a pair of panties and they would wear their wives panties on their combat helmets. And I always thought it was so ironic that you could wear it on your helmet but not on your body! (laughter) ?: I was in the wrong place, too, I wasn't allowed to wear those! Jackie: Well of course, although this doesn't really relate to the gender, certainly it's a related aspect. I'm reminded of Sergeant Matlivick, who was in the Air Force, and was dismissed from it because he was gay. And his comment was "I received a medal for killing two men and I was discharged for loving one." Jane: OK. One thing we need to do, we as non-transsexuals, especially crossdressers, is that we need to define our ultimate goals. Now last night, Mary Ann and Melissa and I had quite a little conference on it, each bringing up some very valid points. In the case of crossdressers there are going to be some goals that are going to be very difficult to define our ultimate goals but we need to get about the business. Transsexuals are miles ahead of us. To keep the turtle analogy intact, crossdressers are engaged in a turtle race to define their own goals. Transsexuals even have an employers handbook which is available and we haven't even started defining our goals. Restrooms at work are still an issue. If you all ever go down to the Adam's Mark Hotel out here in West Houston, they've solved the problem admirably. They have a gentleman's room, a ladies room, and right in between them they have a unisex washroom that can satisfy the needs of both. I think this is a possible ultimate solution. But, ultimately, when we reach a state when we have a real ENDA and when we have a truly nondiscriminatory environment for crossdressers in the workplace what's going to have to happen is the employer and the crossdresser are going to have to reach an agreement that they'll use the men's room, the women's room, or perhaps have to build or modify existing restrooms to unisex restrooms. To build a restroom from scratch is fairly expensive. It costs about $40,000. You can modify an existing one for a lot less. Melissa: For about a buck and a half you can get a bolt that goes on the back of the door. Jane: For a lot less! So anyway, that may be a positive solution to the restroom issue. Melissa: The one issue about that would mean that the crossdresser would have to get rid of turtle shell, because they have to come out to their employer to do it. Jane: Strike one against the turtle shell! There will be several more. There will be several more before this conference is over. The other thing is, transsexuals have another advantage over us in the workplace to get themselves a pleasant environment. At least they change their name, from, like, Paul to Paula, and the only thing that coworkers have to wrestle with is that this was once Paul. In some cases they may only have to change a letter in their name so that Terry becomes Terri. So, for transsexuals, it's an easier route. It's much harder in the workplace for people to relate to Gil one day and Jane the next, back and forth and forth and back, so that's a problem that needs to be solved. A possible solution, strike two on this turtle shell, was one that was cited at the second international conference on crossdressing, sex, and gender that was held in Philadelphia last month. Two crossdressers got up and opposed the concept of gender dimorphism so that if you are a crossdresser, you automatically have to have a feminine name. Their position was that we should get out and allow ourselves to be recognized as the crossdressers we are, and keep the male name. Now that's not a perfect solution necessarily either, but it's a new solution, and it will have to be evaluated and probably modified. Jackie: Let me speak to that. An individual in Houston here, whose name is ambiguous, male name can be utilized as either a male or female name. I love him to death, but there is no way in hell he is ever going to pass as a woman. But yet he is out and about most every weekend as his feminine persona. I don't know whether his skin is thick enough or if he has just reached the comfort level where he just doesn't give a damn what anybody else thinks or says. Because he basically is out and about. I am also, on most weekends, out as Jackie. I do use "Jackie" as opposed to my male name when I am dressed that way. And I am sure, although I try very hard, that I do not pass as much as I like to think that I do. But I have also found, for the most part, when I am out at the grocery store, or the drug store, K Mart or whatever, that most of the sales clerks or people I come in contact with really don't care! You know, they're there to sell the merchandise. In the case of other customers, if I don't bother them, they don't bother me. So if you can get out and about, and basically put a face on the concept of transvestism, to where you're just another person in the crowd, going about your normal everyday business, it make it a lot easier for others who haven't quite achieved the same comfort level. Jane: Pass footballs, and examinations, but don't try to pass yourself off as a counterfeit member of the opposite sex. Mary Ann: I have a story to tell on this issue about not trying to pass. In my own heart, I'm a crossdresser. I do all this stuff to try to pass because it helps me fit in a little better in society. But where I'd really rather be is just being a male, wearing the clothes that are the most comfortable for me. And that is actually much harder to do in today's society than the full feminine presentation. But I have tried it, and it can cause problems. I was in Chicago with my wife one particular day. We had a little bit of free time and we decided to go to see the Field Museum. And I wanted to wear a skirt. So I was in male presentation, I had short hair at the time, wearing a skirt. (tape side change.) I dropped my wife off at the front door, and went to park at the closest parking, which happened to be at Soldier Field, across the street, and if you know the area, across the street is about two blocks from the front door of the Field Museum. So I parked the car, and then I walked, through the drizzle, toward the Field Museum, and there was a bus tour of teenage boys, hanging around the front, just sort of waiting for their group to be admitted, with a little bit of free time on their hands, and they thought I was the most amusing thing they'd seen in quite a while. So several of them, and it was eleven o'clock in the morning, and they were seventeen, I'm assuming they weren't drunk, several of them decided they were going to come chasing after me, and yell at the top of their lungs "We like girls! We like girls!" I was so tempted to tell them "I'm so glad you told me! Otherwise I wouldn't have known!" (laughter) But I thought better of it. Personal safety was at issue there, and I did what any woman would have done. I kept my eyes straight ahead and I walked in a straight line for the front door. And after only following me for about one block they left me behind. So harassment is a real problem, and if we do that mode, which I hope is where we're really headed, and "eventually" is a long time, that's yet another hurdle we're going to have to overcome. Jane: Absolutely. Thank you Mary Ann. Sandy: Sandy Corwin. Just as sort of a carrier to what Mary Ann experienced and trying to reinforce what Cathy said, I've found that salespeople can really be very nice and accommodating. I went into the Limited once at lunchtime, dressed for work as a male and I was looking at some skirts and there was a question of which blouse would go better, and somehow the salesgirl picked up very quickly, she said, "well, would you like to try it on?" and I said "yes", and she pointed me to, I guess there were 2 dressing rooms and she said "there's a dressing room here, if you'd be more comfortable on the other side, you can go ahead. It was just so pleasant, that it was not an issue, and I was there to purchase something, and I went and found her manager and complimented her, she was really excellent. So it does happen. Melissa: To show you how much things have changed, a couple of years ago I had to cut my hair for a job interview, and I thought, I've gotten so good now that I can pull this off with a wig, well, then, I'm not that good, as I thought I was. I went into a straight bar, the people there that read me, they wanted to buy me a drink and ask questions. And this was what you would call your roadside bar, your redneck bar. And if you had told me this was going to happen, I would have said no, no way, but public attitude is really changing quite a lot. There are getting fewer and fewer people who want to beat us up. You have to work real hard now to get beat up! (laughs) Mary Ann: Just watch out for those teenage boys! Melissa: Right! Jackie: You just have to go to the right place. Melissa: Teenage boys. Most of the adults, even of the redneck variety, are becoming more receptive. Jackie: Talking about rednecks, and also Pasadena, which is supposed to have the crossdressing ordinance, which I assume is not enforced on Halloween. (laughter) Several years ago, I and a friend of mine who was a member of Gulf Coast as well, who was a preoperative transsexual in transition at that time, had gotten in costume for the GCTC October Halloween meeting and of course the meeting runs from about 7 to 10, and it's over about 9:30 10:00 which is fairly early before most of the activities at the club begins anyhow. I'm a Country and Western fan, been listening to one of the local Country radio stations, and they were having a costume contest out at a redneck kicker bar out in Pasadena called Hullabaloos. And I looked at Vicky and I said "Vicky, let's go out to the Costume Contest" I was dressed as Dolly Parton, Miss Mona in Best Little Whorehouse in a red satin with ruffles and big blond hair, and Vicky was dressed as Mae West with a big picture hat and a Gibson Girl dress and so forth. I said "Let's go out to Hullabaloos" for their costume contest, and she looked at me and said "Are you out of your mind?" and I said "No, it'll be fun! And besides, we're back to back on each other, a least there'll be two of us there." So against her better judgement we went out there. We got some strange looks as we were walking across the parking lot, because both of us were, I'm 6'1" and she's almost 6' tall. We were both wearing heels. But, when we got to the door, the doorman waved us right on with a smile. We started circulating around the place And the dance floor's in the center, and then there's a set of tables and there's a pathway and another set of tables behind the pathway. And so we were wondering around, waiting for the costume contest to start and we got some smiles and some snickers from some of the girls and of course in my Miss Mona persona I'd come up to the girl and I'd say "We're getting ready to reopen the Chicken Ranch out there and we're looking for looking for staff people!" and of course they just "hoo hoo hoo"ed. The guys who where with the girls were not real comfortable with that. And as soon as I got the girl settled down I turned to the guy and I said "Oh, by the way, we're also gonna need bouncers and doormen. Would you be interested? The fringe benefits are great!" and that just broke the ice. So anyhow, later on that evening, when they began the contest, they had all the people that were in costume up on the dance floor in a circle, circling around, and the manager and assistant manager were picking out the finalists for the contest, and every time that Vicky and I would walk past, not Vicky Thomas but another Vicky, would walk past, there was a crowd of girls behind us that would say "pick them, pick them!" and they never did - they just didn't have enough guts to do it. It was a lot of fun, and we got out of there with all of our teeth, and no real problems! It can be done! Vicky Thompson: That brings up an important distinction. One of the things that, if you're going to go out, and if you want to avoid, if you're not going to Montrose, if you're going somewhere else other than Montrose, dress what your age, and the proportions of your body. Dress appropriately. Because I think this is how the public has become friendly toward as. Because obviously, if someone is dressed as a drag queen, that is a perceived threat. Whereas if you're dressed just as a normal ordinary woman, that is not a threat. Jane: One thing these stories do tell us, though, is that, if we don't take ourselves so doggone seriously, and be who we are, have fun, and apply a little sense of humor to the action, we're going to get accepted a lot better. We were on a Dignity Cruise with Peggy Rudd one time. Of course our friend Robin was there and she was in the casino with her also crossdressed friend. They made friends of the whole casino by the time the evening was coming to a close. A new blackjack dealer came on and made some smart remarks and about 50 people, non crossdressers, left. They were insulted by it. The lady was disciplined by the pit boss. You know, a little sense of humor does help. One more thing on the wish list, defining our ultimate goals. Is because right now, all we can get as crossdressers is a DBA. Doing Business As. It would be nice if we could have a recorded, registered, legal alias, so that we could become validated as the people we are. And that's all I really have on that. Now. We've talked about crossdressers. We've talked about drag queens. We haven't talked much about spouses. Well, unfortunately, a lot of the spouses of crossdressers believe, even the ones that are pretty accepting, believe "it's sort of his thing." But if you're a spouse of a crossdresser and you lose your job because they at work find out you're the spouse of a crossdresser, all of a sudden ENDA should apply to you. And the second thing is that you, as a spouse, have issues about children. We are a sitting target for people like child welfare workers who are largely unregulated today, and this is something that we all ought to be pushing for. These folks are unregulated, they act on stereotypes, guilty until proven innocent. And proving innocence can be a very hard long legal battle, and you could lose your children out of this. So it really behooves the wives, the spouses of crossdressers to get involved in these legal efforts also. Mary I think you have something on this. Frances Fairfax: The Children's Protective Services apparatus is a danger to everyone to everyone in the country, not just to gender-different people. They are unregulated. A lot of their employees are not even degreed social workers. They're uncredentialed. They are a complete law unto themselves. You are guilty until you are proven innocent. The normal Bill of Rights provisions don't apply to you. It's a nightmare that can destroy your family and destroy your reputation. To get any kind of job you are labeled a child abuser, almost without recourse, because the regular criminal justice system or civil system, if you try to sue them, they stonewall, the claim they're not required to abide by the Bill of Rights. So there are a few things you can do to protect yourself. In the first place, all of us are sitting ducks, and anybody who's a little different is more so, all across the political and socioeconomic spectrum in the United States. But if somebody reports on you and a Social Agency person shows up on your doorstep 1. Do not let them in without them showing you a warrant. I've got a whole list of things here, I'll just hit a few of the more important ones. Don't let them. Don't let them, ever, talk to your children alone. Let them see the kids through the door or window, and tell them yeah, your kids are OK. Get YOUR doctor to examine the kids and send a report to the caseworker. If they want to interview you, interview down in their office, not in your house. Anytime they're in your house, once you've let them in, you've waived your 4th amendment rights. So you have to be completely on your guard. Get yourself a child abuse attorney. Right offhand. There's organizations, one called VOCAL, Victims Of Child Abuse Laws that you can get some help from. Tape all your conversations, tape your phone calls with them. Because they'll be incredibly threatening, and act in a real bizarre and hateful way, if you lose your temper, that's evidence against you right away. It gets pretty bad. Never take a plea bargain or plead "no contest". Because you're sunk if you do. Then if you tell your therapist, they might force you to go to some therapist and if you tell the therapist you're really innocent, then that shows that your unrepentant! I mean, it's a whole twisted Catch 22 situation that you can't win unless you play very carefully. Hire an investigator to check out the accuser, the accused, and the victim. If they want to examine your child, and they do examine your child, by their doctor or whoever, immediately get the child to YOUR doctor to be reexamined, so you have somebody that can contradict what they supposedly have found. Because they will take your kid, they will harass, intimidate your kid and construe anything the kid says or does as evidence against you and anything you say. If they want to give your kid a mental health evaluation, demand that the whole thing be videotaped, that the accused get a copy of the tape, and have an attorney present during the evaluation also. Don't surrender your children willingly or move out of your house or do anything that puts you under their control. Anybody who is falsely accused should vigorously fight to defend their rights. Don't try to compromise. They'll want to evaluate with this medeval torture device that's supposedly measuring your erectile response to pornography and all this. You do not have to submit to that, or to a polygraph. The thing is to be prepared and to have a lawyer that you can call if this ever happens. Know your rights and don't compromise, because if you do you're sunk. Jane: These folks tend to stomp on your feet, and when you holler "ouch" they cut your suspenders. Jackie: Two items. Another group here in the Houston area, and I assume it's a statewide organization, called TFER, that stands for Texas Fathers for Equal Rights. Although it's predominentely a gay organization, they do recognize that Child Protective Services can overstep their bounds, whether it relates to sexual orientation or gender identity. A second point that I think needs to be stressed is that the child abuse which they are alleging can be psychological as well as physical or verbal. It's a hell of a lot harder to disprove psychological abuse than it is to disprove physical or verbal abuse. Jane: Thank you. It's 3:35. At this point, we have a break scheduled at 3:45, and at this point I would like to consult all of us. The next two presentations are going to be two blockbuster ones. Mary Ann is going to tell us about her work with Lucent to get an accepting workplace, and she has done extensive work and it's exciting stuff. Melissa has worked on the lobbying effort, she's a Tri-Ess representative to ICTLEP, ITA, and I might also say Congress, where they did some some sterling work. We can wait until 3:45 to have our break. A 30 minute break is scheduled. We are on break until 4. (end first tape) (missing section of tape. Retyped from notes/memory later.) Jane's intro after the break: Now, for the second half of our presentation, we will consider some of the efforts being made to achieve the rights we seek. Jackie: About jobs, transsexuals legally change their names - because they are making an irreversible change. Crossdressers usually do not change their legal names, and it would be awkward to switch their names back and forth depending upon the presentation of the day. Transgenderists may be required by the employer to stick with one presentation, with an appropriate name. Jane: Thank you, Jackie. We are now going to take up the question of coming out on the job. Mary Ann, a Tri-Ess and Crystal Club member who works for Lucent Technologies in Columbus, Ohio, has a fascinating account of the effort she has made to make her workplace gender-friendly. Mary Ann: This is Mary Ann Harris. I work for Lucent Technologies in Columbus Ohio, although we're a big multinational company, and I'm here to tell you about some exciting development in our company. Let me start from the beginning. About 10 years ago, we were a little Ma and Pa phone company called AT&T. Ma and Pa Bell. We had an affirmative action program, which had employee support groups for blacks, women, Hispanics, Asian Americans, etc. Over time, AA turned into EEO, and then it became Diversity. A group for Gay and Lesbian employees was formed, called LEAGUE. That stood for Lesbian and Gay United Employees. That group did a lot of important work. They got it into AT&T EEO policy that AT&T would not discriminate due to "sexual preference or orientation". They formed local chapters. They invented the "safe space" magnet, with a pink triangle surrounded by a green circle. People would put up the magnets, I wish I'd brought one to show you, in their offices, and that would mean the office is a safe space for gays, where you can just be yourself. (Comment from the audience that they've seen them in other companies.) Those magnets were invented in AT&T in Columbus. LEAGUE held annual conferences. They'd have employees get together and bring in speakers, hold workshops, to raise employee self esteem. They made a lot of progress. Now they're working to get Domestic Partner Benefits. Two years ago, LEAGUE added Bisexual to their charter. Eighteen months ago, AT&T split into three companies: AT&T, an equipment company called Lucent, and a computer company called NCR. LEAGUE also found itself split into three parts, and the Lucent part changed its name to "EQUAL!". (They're very possessive about that !, and they want it in the name everywhere.) At the same time, the charter of EQUAL! expanded to include Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgendered employees. That got my attention. I looked at their literature to see if there was anything behind the Transgendered, but all the issues being discussed were Lesbian and Gay issues. It seemed like there was a golden opportunity to put some meat behind the "T". I thought maybe I should get involved. I went to a weekly Columbus chapter meeting. It turned out the meeting was discussing plans to hold the 1998 annual EQUAL! conference in Columbus. That really seemed like a chance to make a difference. So I volunteered to get involved in the conference. This year's conference was in Denver. I thought maybe if I was going to be putting on next year's conference, I ought to go to Denver to see how this year's is done. I got support from my boss to go to the Denver conference. He knows about Mary Ann and he's supportive. I called Sandy Anton, the co-chair of the Denver conference, and told her I'm transgender, and that I'm registering for the conference. She said "great! A transgender resource! Can I ask you for help when I need it?" I said "Sure!" A little later, she asked if she could refer a transgendered employee to me. I said sure. (That person never did contact me.) Another time, she needed a web page for transgender information to put in the program. I gave her IFGE's web page, which points about everywhere. So I got to thinking. It sounded like I was the first transgender employee to get involved with EQUAL!. People don't seem to know what "transgender" is. Maybe Mary Ann should go to the conference. I called Sandy A and asked her if that would be OK. (Getting buy-in is critically important.) She didn't know what to expect. I think she was afraid I was going to show up in fishnets and 6 inch heels and make a big splash. I assured her that the whole point was to blend in, not stand out. I promised to work with her on any issues. She said fine, she was looking forward to meeting Mary Ann. I suggested that, since people might not notice Mary Ann and realize she's transgender, perhaps to get the point across, some days Mary Ann should go, other days Mark should go. She said I should call Michelle Audit about name tags. Michelle said she'd be happy to make me two name tags, and what would I like them to say? I also told the Columbus chapter what I was up to, and made sure it was OK with them. They were all incredibly supportive. Again, it was vital to ask them first. I went to the conference, met people as Mark, and then came down Friday morning as Mary Ann. Michelle said there might be someone named Sandy show up, that I should meet. Sure enough, Friday morning, this man walked up with a name tag that said Sandy C, and introduced himself as another transgendered employee. He saw me there, dressed, and that gave him the courage to come back after lunch dressed. It was also great for me, not being the only one there. We supported each other. I'm really proud to see Sandy C in the audience right now. Sandy C: When we were part of AT&T, there was an internal support group for gays and lesbians called LEAGUE. As we were about to split the company, LEAGUE expanded its charter to include bisexuals. After Lucent split off from AT&T, LEAGUE became EQUAL! Some time late last year, I noticed in a company wide email that EQUAL! had broadened its scope to include the transgendered. This was encouraging to me personally. Early this year there was company-wide email about an EQUAL! workshop in Denver. When I looked at the internal web site for the agenda, I saw a session on transgendered issues. I decided that Walt would go and that Sandy would very much like to. Since employees are encouraged to take training in both technical and non-technical areas, I decided that the workshop would be part of my training plan in the non-technical part. When my boss approved my training plan, he did not ask what the workshop was about, and I did not volunteer any specifics (shades of the military's don't ask, don't tell...!) When I called to register for the workshop, I told the registrar that I was interested in the transgendered session and asked that my name tag read `Sandy'. I also asked what the dress for the workshop was. She (and I was so glad that it was a woman!) said that it was casual and I replied that I didn't have a lot of casual outfits but could probably pull something together. I also asked if she felt that dress would be a problem with the other participants, and she said no. So without being explicit, I got across that Sandy would come and thankfully she picked up what I was not quite comfortable asking, because .... she later told Mary Ann to keep an eye out for Sandy. The morning of the workshop, since I was staying in a hotel a couple of blocks from the workshop hotel, Sandy chickened out and Walt went. After I picked up my badge, I went to get coffee and I saw someone tall in a woman's suit in line. I had a flash of recognition of a kindred spirit and introduced myself to Mary Ann. It was SO nice that there was at least one other TG at the workshop! (As it turned out there were exactly two of us at the workshop.) Mary Ann and I went to Diana's session on transgendered issues. Diana's session was great. At lunch I had the confidence that Sandy would be accepted, so I went back to my hotel and changed and Sandy came back for the afternoon session. Everyone was great. Mary Ann had decided that Mark would attend the second day's session, but Sandy was feeling great about being accepted, so Sandy came for the whole second day. At one point Ethel, a Director in the Human Resources organization, was giving a speech and referring to `gays, lesbians, and bisexuals'. I was beginning to fell uncomfortable and a little bothered since EQUAL!'s charter included transgendered. I was thinking about objecting (and apparently Mary Ann was too) when the most wonderful thing happened: Evelyn, a straight, non-transgendered person at the conference that Mary Ann and I had spoken with earlier raised her hand and objected to Ethel not including transgendered! Ethel apologized, and from then on included transgendered. That support gave me a very warm and accepted feeling and I am very grateful to Evelyn. Sandy came out to and had dinner with a colleague I had known for a number of years. We had a super time as two girls out on the town, she said that my `courage' had inspired her and observed that I had never been as much `me' as when she was out with Sandy - but that is a whole 'nother story. On the flight back, Walt sat next to Ethel and had a chance to lobby her for changes to the Lucent personnel policy. Mary Ann again. We had a really great conference, met a lot of great people, and the support from the LGB community was really great! My boss makes a very wise statement: "You can reach higher by standing on people's shoulders than by standing on their toes." That's really true here. We started a mailing list, made a web page, and got started with the real work. The first thing on the agenda was to get an EEO policy that says we won't fire or discriminate or harass people for being transgendered. We had a speaker from HR Diversity, Ethel Batten, give a great talk. But her talk said "Lesbian and Gay" over and over. At the end of the talk, one of the other people there beat me to the microphone and told her she needed to include transgender in her language. She made a commitment to do that and to work with us to get the word out. Ethel referred us to Ralph Combs, the guy in HR who writes the EEO policy. Ralph was super, really helpful. He was happy to work with us, through the proper channels. EQUAL! designated Dennis Parker as the contact to work with Ralph, so I started working with Dennis. We started to draft language. We didn't want to take the Minnesota approach. That approach is great where it works, but we felt that Gender issues are separate from Sexual Orientation. We wanted to draft model language that other companies could copy. We also wanted to extend protection to the Intersexed. The current Lucent policy reads "Lucent's policy is to ... prohibit the use of a person's sexual preference or orientation, or marital status, as a criterion in personnel decisions." We wanted to add a gender clause in there next to sexual orientation. We started with "gender identity or expression." Gender identity is how you feel on the inside, and that mostly protects transsexuals. Gender expression is how others see you, and that mostly protects crossdressers, but it also protects many gays and lesbians and transsexuals. But this language doesn't protect the intersexed, and we asked ISNA for some suggestions for how to protect them. One proposal was "gender identity, characteristics, or expression." ISNA wanted something like "status as biologically intersexed" in there. The problem is that you can't name groups, like lesbian, or transgendered, because you'd be making a special privilege. So you have to name the attribute, like sexual orientation, or gender identity. There isn't a term like that for the intersexed. ISNA proposed "sex or gender characteristics." We then passed "gender identity or expression, sex or gender characteristics" to Dennis. But it had already gone to legal saying "gender identity, characteristics, or expression", and they felt that to put through a change now including "sex" was a red flag. It didn't make it in. I personally don't understand that, because it already says "sexual orientation", and a few lines higher it says we won't discriminate because of sex. I guess three "sex"'s and you're out! (Room erupts in laughter, comments about many possible ways to interpret that.) But we get to put whatever we want in the definitions, so we should be able to define "gender characteristics" to include intersexed status. This language is at legal now, and it looks like it's going to go through. I have a draft of the new language now. I've been asked not to share it in writing, and I understand this talk is being transcribed for the proceedings. So I'll state for the record this is a draft, and the language may change when it's final. The draft says "Lucent's policy is to prohibit unlawful discrimination OR HARRASSMENT because of race, color, creed, religion, national origin, citizenship, sex, ..., or because of a person's sexual orientation, gender identity characteristics or expression, in amy employment decision or in the administration of any personnel policy." I have some concerns that I'll feed back to them, such as the word "unlawful", and putting a comma after "identity." I've heard this language is going forward. I hope to be able to get up at the Colleagues conference next year and announce that Lucent has adopted EEO language protecting the transgendered! By the way, let me put in a plug for Colleagues. Colleagues is an umbrella organization of the LGB and sometimes T diversity groups in large companies like Lucent, AT&T, NCR, Xerox, Kodak, Disney, etc, and some labor groups. They will be getting together to share information about these employee groups. If your company has a diversity group, with or without transgender inclusion, I urge you to get them to Colleagues. If we can show several groups there with transgender inclusion, hopefully everyone will do it. The Colleagues conference is in Rochester on April 17-19, 1998. The contact address is outnequal98@cinti.net (use Sheryl in the subject line.) So that's the first item on our agenda. We have more. We wanted to find out if there is medical coverage for transsexuals going through SRS. Even though it's rumored that two transsexuals have transitioned on the job in AT&T, nobody knows any details. And that's probably fair, due to privacy concerns. I called MBC, our mental health provider. They said sure, counselling for transsexuals in transition is fully covered! Then I called CIGNA, one of the companies that administers the medical plan. The person I talked to thought it would be covered. I asked him if there was a list of exclusions, and he said there is. He checked the list, and sure enough, the list excludes "sex reassignment surgery, including hormones." We've got work to do there. We need to figure out what the incidence of transsexualism is in a company of 120,000 people, how many people transition each year (probably well under one) so we can say "if you cover this, it will cost the company $2000 per year" or whatever. Since Lucent is considering paying Domestic Partner Benefits, we ought to be able to afford SRS. I'd even like to find some medical way to get the electrosis covered. Jane: If electrolysis is needed because of pseudofolliculitis barbae, it will be covered. Mary Ann: Also on our agenda, we need some accommodations for the transgendered on the job. We need flexibility in dress codes. We need rest rooms. I'm not sure if the answer is that it will be safe to use the men's room, or to use the women's room, or a unisex bathroom. But crossdressers really do have bladders, and we can't go eight hours - we need a place to go! Finally, we need education and outreach. The company regularly holds AA seminars to teach people about the issues of blacks, or women, or gay employees. We need seminars and workshops to teach about transgender. I want to close by mentioning why this is important. NYNEX is a phone company, very similar to Lucent. A transsexual NYNEX employee, Chanelle Picket, worked in MIS. She was fired when she tried to transition on the job. Since she was transitioning, she wasn't able to find another job. She wound up in the sex trade. One of her customers strangled her to death. The defense was "deception", that it was OK to kill this person because she was transsexual! Her killer got off on an assault conviction. If NYNEX had a Transgender-inclusive Diversity nondiscrimination policy, Chanelle Picket might be alive today. Sandy C: A couple of lessons to be learned from Mary Ann and Sandy's stories: People need to see us as real people and meet us and talk to us and we need to meet them and listen to them, and they need to see more than one of us. We need to support one another. One person, such as Mary Ann can make a significant difference, even in a large organization. People (or companies) are not necessarily against us; they do not in general understand who we are, where we are coming from, or what we need, or what we want. We need to communicate! Jane: As I listened to Mary Ann's account of her work at Lucent. I was impressed by several points." First, the Lucent story shows what can happen when a crossdresser steps forward and voices her needs, and employers are really committed to diversity. Second, there is a need to raise consciousness in the crossdresser community. Accounts of this work should be published in the Mirror, Tapestry, the Renaissance News and Views, and local publications. Third, the story of Sandy and Mary Ann at the conference is a beautiful example of crossdressers supporting each other and building each other's confidence. Fourth, when we write a policy statement, the KISS method (Keep It Simple) works best. Loading the boat with words can sink it. Fifth, one can accomplish more if one stands on people's shoulders, than if one stands on their feet. Sixth, if a company adopts a gender-friendly policy, its next step will be to educate its employees. This means companies will be doing our outreach for us! (end of missing tape section.) Mary Ann: I'll repeat the last thought. Chenille Picket was a NYNEX employee who lost her job because she transitioned on the job. She was a transsexual, was unable to get another job as a transitioning transsexual, wound up in the sex trade, went home with some guy who suddenly claimed "deception", strangled her to death, he was arrested, his defense was "deception", that it was OK to murder this person because she was a transsexual, and the defense worked, because he got off with assault instead of murder. ?: Can we put out a contract on him? (laughs) Mary Ann: Well, he's in jail, he's pretty safe now, but he won't be in jail long. So if NYNEX had a policy that protected transgender employment, I believe that Chenille Pickett might be alive today. And that's why I feel it's not just a matter of catering to a few people in order to include transgender protection. I believe this is a lifesaving matter. Jane: Listening to Mary Ann's presentation, I was struck by six lessons. First, the Lucent story shows what can happen when a crossdresser or other transgendered person steps forward, and employers are really committed to diversity. Like we were talking a little while ago about how hard it would be for them to make the adjustment between Paul and Paula. You know, this lady had no problem whatall with Mary Ann. Second lesson is, there is a need for more Lucent stories. We need to publish each of these in large circulations like the Mirror, Tapestry, Ren News & Views and local publications. These stories need to get out. We need to encourage more of them. The story of Sandy and Mary Ann was very touching. You know, we reinforce each other, give each other confidence. I just loved hearing that. When we write a policy for sale to a corporation, KISS. The Keep it Simple System works well. When you load the boat with too many words and too many terms, the boat begins to sink, people just can't get it, so keep it simple. I love "you can accomplish more if you stand on people shoulders than if you stand on their feet." Education is usually better than confrontation. You don't threaten people. And finally, if this policy comes to pass, there's going to be a need for extensive workshops and programs to educate company employees. If we could get a company going in a nondiscriminatory way like this, an inclusive way like this, the company will actually do our outreach for us, to, in this case, thousands of people. Jackie: I want to reiterate one point that I had made with regard to the legal aspect on jobs for crossdressers. Other than the vulnerability that exists, discriminating against them just because they are crossdressers, normally your crossdressers do not change back and forth. They're not Paul one day and Paula the next. And therefore it's not unreasonable for the employer to require that they present continuously one way or the other. A couple of other real quick points in regard to Mary Ann's story there. About the transgender anxieties of the person that was referred to them and never did follow through on the referral. I was up in Philadelphia for a class reunion up there, my high school class reunion, and I went to a party that was held at one of the Renaissance members' houses, and one of the guests there who was a member of Renaissance was a priest who was a teacher at a Catholic high school. Unbeknownst to him, one of the other guests who had been invited to attend turned out to be one of his students of a couple of years before, and neither one knew about the other. So it's not unlikely that, particularly if you're in a large situation where you've got 120,000 people, there's going to be a bunch of people who are going to be crossdressers. As far as the employee groups, it's very very worthwhile to tag onto the existing gay and lesbian groups until you get enough gender people to form your own group. You can cooperate with the gay and lesbian groups. Phyllis invited me to attend the meeting of the gay/lesbian group at Texas Commerce Bank. I had an excellent time up there. They were totally acceptive and indicated that they would be acceptive of any of their employees, would shield them under that group as well, that we're transgendered. Don't NOT join a group of that sort because you're not gay or lesbian yourself. In my own particular instance, as a member of the Royal Sovereign Imperial Court of the Single Star, I've been a member for 10 years. There have been other non-gay or lesbian members, although it is predominently a gay or lesbian organization. Whenever I go out of town or out of state, particularly with regard to the court, and start discussing what is going on in Houston, and the cooperation that exists in Houston between the different segments of the gay and lesbian community, the other people are just absolutely amazed. They're not aware of, at least in their community, the leather community doesn't cooperate with the cowboy community, the cowboy community doesn't cooperate with the drag community, the drag community doesn't cooperate with the lesbian community. Here in Houston, hey, we all get along just fine. Jane: When crossdressers are seen in public, acknowledging who they are, proud of themselves, etc, they can accomplish a heck of a lot. I'm going to turn the floor over to Melissa Dixon who is the Tri-Ess representative to ITA and ICTLEP, who, with her group in February accomplished an amazing amount, and opened just a tremendous number of doors. Melissa: First I'd like to key off what Mary Ann has done. What you heard is what one excited person can do if a little door is cracked. In her case it was a diversity policy. Your company doesn't have to be large enough to have a group, just a policy. Because all you've got to do is just make a phone call and ask, and you'll probably be truly surprised of how many people are receptive and want to talk to you. And it took a lot of nerve. We talked from Mary Ann's comments here on employment within the company, and it's important and what you're saying is right, if the Lucents and the IBMs and the Disneys and etc Kodaks start this, it grows, at a grass roots, and the corporation is probably the largest nonpolitical area to deal with. It affects more people other than a government organization will. The next thing is to deal with your government. Now this is probably the scariest thing you can imagine. First time I went to Washington DC and rode the Metro with Phyllis. I never met Phyllis until I got there, number one, so I got a unique experience there. First time, I'd only been out shortly, less than a year as a matter of fact at that point. Very very different situation to be totally out. But what you find out is what Jane Ellen says. Just go and do it. The issue is here now with ENDA, what we did in February was, ENDA as a law today, as what's in front of Congress. Jane Ellen says it's a Discriminatory Non-Discrimination Act. It only protects those gays and lesbians who can currently pass as straight. It only protects gays and lesbians for what they do or are perceived to do in the privacy of their home. Effeminate males, straight or gay are unprotected. Masculine females, straight or gay, are unprotected. Transgenders have no chance. If ENDA were passed as it is today, legally, none of us would have a chance, except for the lucky like Mary Ann that have a corporate policy. What we did, there was 20 of us that showed up in February. Thank goodness the weather was beautiful. Cold up there but still beautiful. We walked the halls of 3 Senate office buildings plus over into the House of Representatives side. Spoke with 50 Senators, 49 of who had voted for it last time, or their replacements, plus 1. We even went to Jesse Helms' office, my Senator. He wouldn't talk to us. We got a commitment from over 40 of those Senators that they would continue to vote "yes" for ENDA with transgender inclusion. We were looking for, basically, the Minnesota laws. We weren't that concerned with whether we were lumped in with sexual orientation or what. We just wanted to be included. We had two flat-out "no"'s, out of 50, just two flat-out "no"'s, that they would not. The two "no"'s were freshman Republican Senators who had just replaced the Democratic Senator who had just voted "yes", so that wasn't a surprise to anyone. We opened up doors in the respect that 50 Senators staff did not know about transgender with the exception of what they see on Jerry Springer. We shocked a lot of people to the fact that we were all in our suits, nice typical navy blue suits, etc. Many were turned around completely. Pamela Lift, she and I were on the same team. I can think of several different cases where we had senior staff members who sat down with us initially 100% against us, was willing to give us 5 minutes, and 30 minutes later was 100% for us. It was an exciting time to do that. There were 3 people that were involved that had never done that before in their lives. That's what you can do with inexperience. You don't have to be a professionally paid lobbyist. And we spoke to some people in the house, etc. We have a lot of work to do in Congress to change ENDA. You don't have to go to Washington to do that. Now let me back up one quick step here. Every last one of us votes, every 2 years, 4 years, 6 years, whatever, and you have representatives of the Senators right here. Call their office here locally and go visit them. I've done that back home in North Carolina. Unfortunately my representative is a female version of Jesse Helms. When I walked in, no matter how well dressed I was, she told me right off the bat she's against the ENDA etc etc and she's going to vote "no". It ended that meeting real quick. I went to a neighboring representative who was totally uninformed and uneducated that we were not part of ENDA. He assumed that every last one in this room was gay. That was his assumption: crossdressers are gay. He's not an ignorant man. He's our friend. It takes some time to educate. Yes, Mary Ann? Mary Ann: Just a comment that, Barney Frank, I understand, has been telling other Representatives that the transgender community is covered under the current ENDA. I think that's a misconception. I don't believe we're covered but some people believe we are covered. I understand it's because Representative Frank is telling them we are. Melissa: I'll get to the stuff that a lot of people are doing to wake up Frank right now. See anyway, what I want to try to lead into right here is what you heard from Mary Ann is what one person can do within a company. You yourself at home can deal on a national level and never have to go to DC. You can deal with your city councilman. You elected the person. I don't know if those of you that were here yesterday heard Dianna. They way our government works back home is all I need to do is go pay $50 to fill out a form and I get to run for office. There is no neighborhood caucus or anything to choose me. So everybody's different there. But you do have a local representative you can talk to. The last I recall, the Constitution, and every Constitution below the United States Constitution, guarantees you that access. Unless there's been a change that slipped past me. Anyway, you still have that right. Exercise it. You don't have to go come out. The other piece is, now, for those of you who aren't as crazy as I am and are willing to walk into a Senators office dressed, there are groups, It's Time, America! is the national organization's name, there's an It's Time, Ohio!, an It's Time North Carolina!, there'll be a web site, and I'll be sure that Jane Ellen, Mary Frances gets the address. Get with those groups locally. Get with your gay and lesbian political active groups. You can write letters. You can donate money if you have any. You can make telephone calls. You don't have to go visit. There's tons and tons of work to be done to gain our civil rights. ENDA I believe, Carrie this afternoon said it's am employment bill that comes way short of what we need. We need fair housing. We need a lot of things. We need a guarantee that we'll get medical treatment when we need it from an emergency room. I mean, there's tons of things we need, but it's a start. Now, there are things you can do, and that's what I want to emphasize. Don't think that you have to be a paid lobbyist. Don't think that you have to be a Miss America to walk into the halls of Congress, to walk into your Congressman's office. I grant you, the closer it gets to home, the scarier it gets if you want to go visit. OK, I understand that. If you don't want to come that out, there's letters to write, money to donate, phone calls to make, stamps, envelopes to lick and seal. There's work to be done. The gays and lesbians would love to have us help if there's not a transgender group doing it. There's work everybody can do. There is no such thing as too little of a job in this case. You're fighting for your own human rights. Yes, Ma'am. Emily Singleton: The sound bite is "You don't have to be out to be supportive." Melissa: That's a nice short statement. I have to eat up some time somehow. Now let me get back to what Mary Ann said and what Barney Frank's doing. It's just coming to light here that a lot of us have been doing a lot of things independently and have brought up some issues for better communication. OK, New Orleans, Nancy Sharp, the local HRC, that's Human Rights Campaign, if I speak in acronyms, somebody wave me down. Their 1997 awards recipients, these are gays and lesbians, totally refused to hold the 1998 dinner, which is the largest fundraiser for national Human Rights Campaign because the national Human Rights Campaign refused to include gender identity language. Gays and lesbians are kicking the national HRC. There was an event at the end of June prior to Labor Day in Washington a public event, which didn't make CNN or anything, naturally. Frank was brought out, and it was proven to Frank by several speakers, transgender speakers, that ENDA is not inclusive, and they read the language to him. They proved it to him publicly that it wasn't inclusive. Frank is not a happy guy with us. We have one person that's not our friend right now, because we embarrassed him, not for any other reason. Myself and Nancy Sharp, Dianna Cicotello and a couple other transgenders have sent letters out across the country to as many transgender leaders as we can, demonstrating how ENDA is not inclusive, how others will be discriminated against in employment, asking these transgender leaders to get with their local gay and lesbian leaders to write letters to HRC, to let the HRC know that we know of the weak legislation they push. The 12th Circuit court of appeals, and I know I'll get in trouble for forgetting this lady's name, just supported the state attorney's office of Georgia. There was a young lady, an attorney, applied for a job, was offered a job. Prior to her having even had an opportunity to accept the job, the job was revoked. Of course, she sued. The 12th Circuit Court of Appeals, in an 8-4 ruling said, "yes, an employer has the right to refuse or terminate employment based on appearances." That's what started the whole thing. There is already court that defeats ENDA before it gets a chance to be law. A Chicago group, those of you yesterday at lunch got our pink stickers. The It's Time, Illinois! group is going to be at the largest dinner for HRC to let Elizabeth Birch know that local gays and lesbians support us. This is coming across the country. That's what we need to do. And those are the things that we all need to do to wake up ENDA. We heard from Carrie today that there's nothing we can do. I disagree with Carrie. I disagree with Carrie on two counts. One there IS something we can do. And two that I do not personally believe ENDA will pass the house. After speaking to one of my Representatives, Melvin Watt, his gut feeling is that ENDA does not have the support in the House of Representatives because of the rapid changeover, the rapid infusion of Republicans, conservative Republicans, freshman conservative Republicans even worse. That if it does get to an open debate on the House floor it will be a gay bashing event. His examples were that there will be gay and lesbian teachers recruiting in the classroom. These are things that his colleagues will be saying on the floor of the house, going into the Congressional Record. He really wishes we had more time to do education in the house, period. Maybe it will, maybe it won't, I don't know. Anyway, the point I want to make is, there is no job too little. You don't have to be out to fight for your rights. It is critical that you do it. It's critical that your wives get involved. If your wife is a schoolteacher, for example, and it were discovered that you were a crossdresser, she could be fired in many states. It's happened, matter of fact, I just can't remember the case to defend that one. Be careful. So the wives need to get involved, and they need to let their opinions known. What politicians like to find out is personal stories. Yes, ma'am? Emily Singleton: P-FLAG is a very powerful supporter. They make a terrific influence when they come in. They are parents. Their sons and daughters have been discriminated against, and they come up and talk to a Congressional person, a powerful impact. Melissa: That's true. When I sent the letter out to transgender leaders. I had the opportunity in February to meet Mary Bonecki. I sent her a copy of the letter, asking her to talk to P-FLAG members. Exactly what Emily said that having your parents involved, supporting you, is a major influence. Noone wants to have their parents right them a letter saying "you're doing a bad job" either. We can do something. You can do something. The problem is that I'm preaching to the choir. The fact that everyone is here says that you have a concern, you want to get involved, or you are involved in some way. Continue to do it. Encourage as many people back home to do it. Don't be afraid. In North Carolina, there are no support groups, that I can find nor my co-founder of It's Time, The Carolinas. There's P-FLAG, but I mean transgender support groups, I'm sorry. In South Carolina there's three transgender support groups and a P-FLAG that I work with in Charlotte. The downside to the whole thing is they're scared to death to come out. They're scared to death to do anything. And it takes a lot of time and effort to work with them. But we need to encourage everyone to get out and be known. It's their rights you're fighting for. Anyway, any questions? Emily: You do it for yourself in spite of the kicking and screaming. Melissa: I think several times today it's been mentioned in other sessions I've attended: you will get a few bruises, you will get some disappointments, and you will shed some tears. But you're fighting for yourself as well, so you've got to do what you can't give up. Anyway. Jane: Robin Shayore Melissa: Oh, Robin Sharore, yeah thank you, that's the young lady, is a lesbian that was fired, that had her job offer revoked by the state of Georgia, and the 12th Circuit Court of Appeals upheld her revocation. And that's scary to the fact that that says that your appearances, wearing earrings, having longer hair, I mean, I wore my studs to work too, OK? ANYTHING that's out of line. Longer fingernails than a man should have, regardless of the paint, can get you fired legally. North Carolina's a right-to-work state, they can fire you for the color of your socks. They can fire you for earrings, believe me, trust me. Anyway. Jackie I think wants to talk for a minute. Jackie: A couple of real quick points. Always remember that people often fear that which they don't understand. And so you need to put a face on transgenderism. With regard to my own daughter, it was a situation where my ex-wife did not find out until two years after we were divorced. The first thing she did was she told our two children, and the next thing she did was she told the pastor of our church. Lovely, lovely individual. But in any event, in dealing with my daughters situation and her distress that finding out about this. I talked to her and one of the comments that she made to is she said "I'm the only one that I know that has this problem." And I said "Yes, you are the only one that you know that has this problem, because it's not something you advertise. But I guarantee you, if you lined up ten of your friends from school" (she was in I think freshman year of high school, but I said "if you line up ten of your friends from school, there's going to be at least one of them in that group who either is a crossdresser themselves or has a father or brother who is." And I said "It's not something that a person advertises." So the main thing is is visibility. And real quickly, I went back to my high school class reunion. Those of you who saw the movie "TAPS" may remember the military academy that was portrayed in it? That's the one I went to. Valley Forge Military Academy. Out just outside of Philadelphia. I went back as Jackie for my class reunion. Having ten years previously gone back I was the class representative. And if you remember the television show Grizzly Adams on television with the beard and the Prince Valiant haircut, that's how I looked when I was the class representative. Ten years later, what you see is what you get. I had two of my classmates that were at that class reunion when I was there, I was, from Friday, in fact the whole ten days that I was up there in the Northeast I was Jackie. But I had two of my classmates that were there at that reunion, one of whom was a Major General in the Army, Deputy Commander of the Corps of Engineers, and the other was a Major General in the Marine Corps, who has since been promoted to Lt. General, who was in charge of all Marine training: Quantico, Paris Island, Cherry Point, whatever. They were both there with their wives, and one of them had a couple of teenage kids there. They were very acceptive, they could not have been more polite to me, treated me totally as a female. I'm sure most of them were under the impression that I was a post-operative TS, with all the surgery and everything else like that. At the end of the weekend, on Sunday, the Regimental Review and everything, I was standing out there looking across the parade field and I had three different people come up to me, alumni from the school, younger than I was, obviously, but anyhow they came up to me and said "I respect what you're doing" and I said "thank you." So it's not that hard to get, and in fact I got more grief from people here in Houston, asking me what kind of an ego trip I was on, and I told them "No, I'm not on an ego trip. I want them to understand that, this is who I am, this is who I was when I was there, and this is who I always will be. And I think that it's again, as I say, visibility and putting a face on transgenderism is very very important. Melissa: Earlier on, Jane Ellen, especially in the last hour, talked about breaking the turtle shell. The issue is that, the best way to educate society, and this is keying off what Jackie just said, is for people to see us for truly what we are: average everyday hard working run-of-the-mill taxpayers who happen to be transgendered. We're no different from anyone else. What I described when we were up there in Congress in February of actually converting people from being an enemy to being an ally. What they saw was average people who wanted what these people took for granted: their rights. The people we talked with were not concerned about losing their job for the clothes they wore. That's all we were asking. They understood that, once they saw that we were just normal people. The crossdresser can do that by getting out, just going shopping, go to a movie. It's a simple thing to do and it won't, well it shouldn't, cost you your life. We're all still here alive and we've been doing it, so.. Mary Ann: Go with a group Jackie: If you want to be not read, go by yourself. Or go with a group and be read. Yes, Emily? Emily: The sound bite is: "Regular people who are just a little bit different." Jackie: Which makes us more fun, anyway, to tell you the truth. Jane: Hey come on! There are people who jump out of perfectly good airplanes! And you think I'm strange? Jackie: I used to be one of those people, I know. Jane: OK, one thing that Melissa was mentioning about the people in Congress who still haven't been educated. We do at Tri-Ess have a complete article file that repeats that, those stereotypical notions that you must be gay, or a drag queen, or whatever, you know, research done by very qualified people. What we need to do, each one of us, is to get ahold of some of that literature. Get the name of the Congressman's staffperson, and send the literature to the Congressman care of the staffperson. Mary Ann: I just want to mention that whenever crossdressers are mentioned to the public, in a context like Dear Abby or whatever, usually the first thing they say is "By the way, the majority of crossdressers are heterosexual." That byline keeps being said often enough that I think the general public is getting that message. I'm not quite sure that I like the details of the message when it gets a little more detailed because the typical line that I hear is "by the way, statistics have shown that only 25% of crossdressers are gay," and I'm saying "Hey, wait a minute. If it's 10% of the general public, and if the gay community accepts drag as a part of it, that so many people who are transgendered actually view themselves as gay rather than transgendered, then our incidence should be lower than 10% because of the overlap." And my experience is that, unless you count transsexuals who have to be gay before or after, just by the way it works, among crossdressers, my experience is that almost all of them are heterosexual. There are very very few gay crossdressers that I've met. I've been honored to meet a few, but most of them seem to be more at home in the gay community than in the transgender community. Jackie: I want to comment on that. This subject has been researched by several people. What Mary Ann says is absolutely born out by research. The incidence of heterosexuality in the population at large (most crossdressers are males, and I don't think the data is going to be different if you include the female-to-males) is 80 to 82%. The regular population: 80 to 82%. The incidence of homosexuality in the male population is something like 15%. The bisexuals are about 4. In crossdressers it's about 80 to 82% heterosexual, 4% fully homosexual, and about 13 or 14% bisexual. If you think about it, it's logical to think about why that would be. This is a compilation that we just did for SPICE among about 4 or 5 different studies, and the N numbers are large. Sandy: What's the incidence of crossdressing in the population at large? Jane: The factual answer to that, you hear 1%, you hear 10%. And it all depends, I think the 10% is counting everybody who's ever crossdressed at Halloween, for one reason or another. But, an interesting piece of data was done on a recent research project on crossdressers vs a control population. And they sent out questionnaires to 138 so-called "controls" or "normal men". And what they got was the 6 of those 138 turned out to be crossdressers, and they included those with the crossdressing data. The only piece of solid evidence I've ever seen. Of course, it's not perfect and it needs to be researched, but 6 out of 138 would be about 4, 4 1/2%, 5% yeah, and that's probably about right. It's such a complicated question because so many of them are in secrecy. Jackie: I think that your percentage of crossdressers depends on what your definition of crossdresser is. If you include your fetishistic crossdressers, the people who have a pair of panties and a bra and they go in the bathroom and masturbate, and then throw it in the closet until they get aroused again, you're probably closer to 10%. If you're talking about people like yourself and myself who present 100% entirely as a female it's probably closer to the 1 or 2%. But the problem you run into, there, really is more one of definition.j As far as sexual orientation is concerned, again, you get, depending on who you listen to, you'll get different numbers. Some of the numbers that I've heard is 75% heterosexual, 15% bisexual, and 10% homosexual, and that applies both to society as a whole and the crossdressing community. My personal opinion is, although I have absolutely nothing whatsoever to base this on other than just talking to people, both person-to-person and on various bulletin-board systems and the Internet and so forth like that, that if people were truthful with themselves, that the bisexual percentage would probably be substantially higher than 15%, and that would be carved out of the heterosexual group. Mary Ann: Just a comment on that. When Kinsey did his research, many many years ago, I believe the number he came up with was 50% heterosexual exclusively, 10% homosexual exclusively, and 40% bisexual exclusively. This data is highly suspect and has been attacked up one side and down the other, so I have personally always taken those numbers with a grain of salt, although I think that is where the 10% number of gays that's so widely quoted comes from. However, and this is my personal anecdotal experience, which is worth the paper it's printed on, right here, is that among the transsexuals that I have known, and I've known probably a couple dozen go through the process, it seems to me that about half of them go through the process, and I'm taking about male-to-female transsexuals, go through the process and declare themselves to be lesbian, because they were attracted to women before, and cutting it off does not affect who they are attracted to, and they are still attracted to women so that makes them lesbian. The other half of them go through the process, and suddenly declare, "well, I guess I'm not interested in women anymore, now I'm interested in men," and they look for a guy to marry. My personal opinion is that that half are bisexual without realizing that they're bisexual and they're just focusing their energy on the other group. Because of this anecdotal gut feel 50/50 ratio, I'm starting to give more credence to this 40% bisexual number. I think there are a lot of bisexuals out there who just don't realize it. Jackie: They're in denial. Mary Ann: I might be one of them, I don't know! Jackie: Denial from societal pressure. You know somehow or other it's not cool to be.. You know, of course with the gay community having progressed as it has in the last 25, 27, 28 years since Stonewall, there's no longer the stigma, or at least not the stigma attached to being gay that still remains when one self-identifies as bisexual. There's still a certain amount of stigma as identifying as bisexual. Jane: OK, I will say that between 1988 and 1996, the research shows stable figures. The parameter that all of the the researchers that I'm aware of have used is not "do you identify as bisexual?" It's "have you ever had a homosexual experience?" is the question that appears in the surveys. That's what my percentages are based on. Sandy: In the survey on crossdressing, how did they ask the question? Was it "do you crossdress regularly?" or "did you ever put on a pair of panties?" Jane: No. What they do in the questionnaire, there are a bunch of questions that relate to crossdressing. Everything from "were you forcibly crossdressed as a child?" to "have you ever crossdressed completely?" or "underwear only" or whatever. Based on the composite answers to all those questions they come up with their percentages. That's how it's done. It's almost time to close. I want to reiterate a point Melissa made that I don't want to see lost in the words. That's that crossdressers and their wives need to get out and be counted as couples. This is very important in working with Congress, for the passage of a real ENDA, as opposed to this, up here. That it's very important to relate to these people in their own frame of reference, not necessarily to ours. So that this principle of accomplishment was noted as far back as the Bible, when St. Paul said to the Romans "I became as a Roman to the Jews I became as a Jew so that I might convert some of them." Of course, he doesn't mean that he changed his beliefs and all that. What he's saying is, "I related to these people in their frame of reference." People respond better when you can do that. The other thing is that, in the past, up really until this year, most of the lobbying efforts have been toward liberal Senators and Congressmen. That's wonderful! But the more of us family oriented types and couples that are willing to get out and be counted and go help with the lobbying effort, these folks will provide family values type people who can relate to the more conservative Congressmen. And we have to remember that to pass ENDA, or to pass housing legislation, or anything else that we as crossdressers need, you have to win, 50% plus 1. Melissa talked about 20% at first and all that. If you get 100% of the Democrats in Congress right now, the result is, you lose. So we can't afford to exclude anybody from our outreach efforts. People like Charles Grassley in Iowa, he has about a 102% conservative voting record, wound up being unexpectedly interested, right Melissa? Melissa: Well, what really happened before I got there originally from Iowa. Iowa is a farm state, which makes it somewhere less down the food chain from North Carolina being a back country. A conservative didn't even comprehend that a such thing as a transgendered even lived in his state, much less would drive through it. A young lady walked in, nicely dressed, asked for 10 minutes, got the 10 minutes, sat down, introduced herself, "I'm transgendered." The Senator actually kept a delegation waiting for an additional 20 minutes because he was so fascinated that this transgendered person had many of the same beliefs that he had. Family values, work, wanted to pay her taxes, etc, just wanted to be treated as a human. He kept a delegation waiting 20 minutes, gave her a total of 30 minutes, totally turned around and was supportive of us. One person can do it. One person can do it. I mean there we took, you know, in essence a Jesse Helms and won him over. And that's all she did is just walk in and say "give me 10 minutes with my Senator." He thought he was giving 10 minutes to a female constituent. So it can be done, it can be done. One other thing I'd like to say is that some of the stuff I'm doing. Nancy Sharp and I were talking and she was doing it for the same reason. A lot of the work we're doing, and what I'm trying to ask you to do probably will not help us that much. But think of our unborn brothers and sisters. Think of the grief that we went through growing up. I mean, my childhood in a small West Virginia town was not a happy one. I mean I did stupid things like join the Marines in 1968, jumped out of airplanes, PERFECTLY GOOD airplanes, to prove that I was a "man." Why should they have to go through the same problems we had to go through, to prove that they're a man or a woman, our brothers and sisters. Why should they get into marriages and have them broken up because they don't understand who they are? Those are the people that I'm trying to help. If help for us is a by-product, great! I'll be honest with you. I'm not helping myself. I mean, those are the folks I really want to help. Jane: It's about time to close. One final point I want to make, is that if we are really going to get that 50% plus 1 that we need, if we're really going to build consensus and accomplish anything as transgendered people of all types, we have absolutely got to stop fighting among ourselves and battling for control. There will never be an Alexandra the Great in the cross-gender community. It's too big, and too diverse, for one person or group to control anything. We need to recognize what our talents are. The squabble between GenderPAC and ICTLEP was a HORRIBLE waste of talent. The result is, some people have gifts to be lobbyists, some people have gifts for confrontation, some for education. I can write but as you see I can't draw a straight line, as you see mechanical equipment just isn't my thing. But we each have have God-given gifts. We need to recognize what those gifts are and apply them to the job. If we all do that, we can elevate our eyes from the mud pit, and turn them upward toward our real goal, which is, going back to the words of the founding fathers, "freedom and liberty and justice for all." "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happyness." So, does anybody else have anything else to contribute? Questions? Comments? No rotten vegetable throwing, please? Thank you all very much. I appreciate the turnout! You surprised us! (applause) ================= copyright 1997: ICTLEP PO Drawer 1010 Cooperstown, NY13326 USA 607-547-4118 ictlephdq@aol.com